There's a weird trend in Europe

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone)
05/11/2020 at 15:24 • Filed to: None

R ather large, American made, hybrid SUV’s in top specs are being officially imported and sold by automakers.

Now, I’m all for global cars, diversity and as many choices as possible but the truth is that from what I’ve seen around here, there will be very, very few of them sold.

DISCUSSION (63)

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:35

Europeans tend not to want large, non-luxury cars that are not MPVs or cargo vans.

fintail > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:35

I’ve seen a few of the puffy new Highlander on the road, makes me think of the old one after suffering some kind of allergic reaction.

And those leering eyes lol, designers should be embarrassed.

Nom De Plume > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever
05/11/2020 at 15:38

Or delivering goods.

Tapas > fintail
05/11/2020 at 15:40

That’s Toyota’s design language for the last 5+ years. Make everything bulbous, round and puffy. Where not possible, add a large frowny character line/ crease/fake vent.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:40

All weird trends come from E urope

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:40

Is there a site that compiles the best selling car(s) in each European country? Would be interesting to see.

FSI > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:41

The Ford Edge and Toyota Camry are also examples of this. Who is the target demographic for those cars?

facw > Tapas
05/11/2020 at 15:43

Honestly I think Toyota’s been getting better lately . I’ll take a little rounding over the huge grills and the parade of angry creases.

ranwhenparked > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:43

Why can't we come up with some sort of reciprocity agreement, where if Europe allows us to dump big SUVs on them, if we allow them to send us some Twingos, A110s, and DS3s?

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:46

i dunno... im seeing more and more rather bigly boats out there

theres a good few full sized new ram whatevers they are blurbling around my town with the big v8s

gas is cheap over here for the moment too (cheap being relative)

Jb boin > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:47

Probably because of CAFE : H ybrid cars even if sold with a lower margin are still better than having to pay fines for smaller and lighter non hybrid cars that would be over the CO2 target .

Especially for heavy hybrids as the CAFE average emission limit is higher for manufacturers selling heavier cars...

fintail > Tapas
05/11/2020 at 15:47

Gotta have the frowny face too, intimidate people out of your way in a butched-up minivan, good luck! I bet Karens go for it though.

MrSnrub > fintail
05/11/2020 at 15:49

The outgoing Highlander was a relatively nice design. Considering Toyota’s generally been on a bit of an upward trajectory in that respect, it’s odd that the new Highlander is such a step back. It looks more expensive than the old one , but very lumpy too. The side surfaces almost look like love handles.

Jb boin > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
05/11/2020 at 15:51

It was for the first 3 months of 2020 so it might not be the most precise (many new cars were launched and the beginning of the... you know what) but it gives an idea.

interstate366, now In The Industry > facw
05/11/2020 at 15:51

The new RAV4 is great, even if it is a Jeep ripoff.

user314 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
05/11/2020 at 15:51

Not sure if best-selling-cars.com has everything you want, but it’s not bad.

fintail > MrSnrub
05/11/2020 at 15:52

To me it is styling for the sake of styling. Maybe the relatively clean prior model didn’t look big enough for the demographic, so they thought puffing it up would give it more presence. I guess it has presence, not necessarily the best look.

ClassicDatsunDebate > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
05/11/2020 at 15:52

Colonialism and putting mayo on french fries, to name but two.

UserNotFound > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:53

Makes sense. If they were extremely popular, they’d build them there. Sounds like there’s just enough demand to justify importing the highest trims.

MrSnrub > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:54

It’ll be interesting to read the UK reviews of these.

They already tried selling the Edge in Europe, and that sold poorly to the point that a 7-seat version of the new Escape/Kuga is replacing it. Not sure why Ford expects the even larger Explorer to do any better, though I guess the hybrid powertrain might help (though the Edge could be had with a diesel).

Cé hé sin > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 15:57

I was just reading today that Toyota plan to sell something called the Highlan der which seems to be an enlarged Rav 4 and is about Landcruiser sized . They’ll sell about six.

Cé hé sin > MrSnrub
05/11/2020 at 15:58

The Edge was diesel only which should have helped but it was only a five seater and far too expensive.

They sold about six.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > facw
05/11/2020 at 16:08

The new Corolla hatch actually pulls it off because it transitions those bulbous shapes into geometric curves. Still a little. . . much, but I’ll take it over what remains of the competition.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Jb boin
05/11/2020 at 16:08

Thanks - t hat’s a lotta VWs!

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2019-full-year-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-and-brands/

MrSnrub > Cé hé sin
05/11/2020 at 16:08

I wonder if this would have done better.

Kinja'd!!!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Cé hé sin
05/11/2020 at 16:10

You don’t want them. It is basically an American sized minivan with half the practicality and none of the purity. Oh and it somehow manages to take up more space.

Kinja'd!!!

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > ranwhenparked
05/11/2020 at 16:12

D epends on the price. The Explorer starts at €70. 000 in Spain. Goes right around 80k with the rest of the bits on it and a full tank of gas. You can get an X5 for that.

If that A110 will be sold for 911 money in America, as brilliant as it is, they won’t be selling more than 110 of them.

Jb boin > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
05/11/2020 at 16:14

Keep in mind that many of the countries are small markets, some selling 100 times less cars than Germany, France or Italy for example.

2009 and 2008 sales figures per group (note that Mitsubishi is not linked to Nissan or Renault).

Tapas > fintail
05/11/2020 at 16:15

And Asian people. Many of them buy Toyotas, Hondas, Acuras and Lexii blindly, just how some Americans are die hard Ford, Chevy or Chrysler/RAM people.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > FSI
05/11/2020 at 16:16

American troops stationed in Europe? Richard Hammond?

Jb boin > ranwhenparked
05/11/2020 at 16:22

Manufacturers are already allowed to dump what they want , there is no import ban, only tariff s and obviously having to pass homologation ; the problem being that nobody would want those cars.

And the A110 is base Cayman/Supra A90 p rice so it might not be totally impossible to sell some but as its mainly a chassis oriented car, automatic and not made to be able to double the power on stock transmission, cooling, t urbo and many other things it probably wont interest many Americans.

fintail > Tapas
05/11/2020 at 16:25

Brand allegiance/bias is a funny thing. I know a German guy who will only choose VW, and a Swiss guy who only wants a Fiat. More than a couple older boomers I know of, like my mom, only want a Toyota. And even I usually think MB has or had a car that I’ll want, no need to look further.

I suppose this Highlander is for the active mom/resigned dad who wouldn’t be caught dead in a Sienna even if it is much more useful for hauling around the unholy terrors and their junk.

ranwhenparked > Jb boin
05/11/2020 at 16:35

Homologation is the problem, but Euro NCAP and the EU emissions regulations should be considered good enough, the standards are different, but still strict. We should just automatically accept whatever they certify

Jb boin > Cé hé sin
05/11/2020 at 16:37

Just checked, the EDGE with the 2.0 238HP does reject between 191g/km of CO2 and 216g/km on the WLTP test (t he value depends on options that makes the cars less efficient) which with the current bonus/malus on new cars in France means that you would have (if it was still sold here) to pay between 7851€ and 20000€ just for this tax.

With the 2.0 150HP which does reject between 176g/km and 194g/km it would be between 3331€ and 9103€.

dogisbadob > FSI
05/11/2020 at 16:48

The Camry is an awesome car that will last a long time with no problems :o)

dogisbadob > ranwhenparked
05/11/2020 at 16:49

because the cheap cowards in Detroit can’t compete

bhtooefr > ranwhenparked
05/11/2020 at 17:00

The problem with EU emissions regulations is that they certify crap, and the other EU member nations are forced to accept things that are fraudulently certified even.

And, outside of CO2, they’re lax compared to American emissions regulations.

Jb boin > bhtooefr
05/11/2020 at 17:22

The emission/mileage certification has changed this year from the old NEDC (that was ~25 years old) to WLTP which is sensibly closer to real life.

And i dont think that other emissions are especially lax, gasoline cars are starting to have DPF here and diesels started to have them in Europe before the US .

MultiplaOrgasms > FSI
05/11/2020 at 17:27

The Camry kind of makes sense to me. I presume even with the predictably abysmal sales figures in Europe outside of Taxi fleets the Camry is still more profitable for Toyota than the previous Avensis, by virtue of its guaranteed monster sales in America.

MultiplaOrgasms > dogisbadob
05/11/2020 at 17:30

*The Camry is a solid car that should be fairly reliable but very expensive to repair. Believe it or not, in europe, japanese cars are more expensive to run than european cars.

bhtooefr > Jb boin
05/11/2020 at 17:41

So, there is a PN requirement that isn’t in the US Tier III emissions standards... but AFAIK, everything else, even in Euro 6d, is about twice what Tier III allows, and the EPA tests are an even harder cycle than WLTP.

Jb boin > bhtooefr
05/11/2020 at 17:58

Another important point is that in many European countries the MOT does emission tests, for example in F rance the cars are tested every 2 years (testing the CO levels, lambda value and exhaust opacity) on val ues that depends on the year the car was produced and which Euro* norm was applied at the time , meaning that a car that can pass the emission tests for homologation should have enough “spare room” to be able to still pass them after a few years without additional needing maintenance (and making the car seemingly unreliable or dirty to customers ).

Cé hé sin > MrSnrub
05/11/2020 at 18:07

What is it? Looks like an E dge, though I ’ve seen so few I wouldn’t be sure.

Cé hé sin > Jb boin
05/11/2020 at 18:13

I see that you (or at least les belges ) have something called an E xplorer too.

MrSnrub > Cé hé sin
05/11/2020 at 18:22

It’s a China-only 7-seater Edge variant.

bhtooefr > Jb boin
05/11/2020 at 18:43

The US Tier III standards include a 150,000 mile useful life in which the emissions performance must be maintained, FWIW.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!
05/11/2020 at 19:13

I ve never been to Europe but I’ve seen it one TV. I can’t imagine the monsterous Explorer roaming the streets their. It’s a lot like a Range Rover, bigger and dumber.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > dogisbadob
05/11/2020 at 22:36

Kinja'd!!!

emission wise US isn’t that much off. It’s the tax applied to larger guzzlers that make US vehicles expensive in most of Europe.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
05/11/2020 at 22:43

whats gets screwy in Ireland and the UK is the landcruiser starts at 43 euro is a 2.8 diesel, 2 door with fabric seats. .

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
05/11/2020 at 22:51

I see like 20 Lexcruisers for every sleeper luxury Toyota Landcruiser, because there is nothing close to a utilitarian version of it sold here. I wish we got a basic two door, though the diesel might do more harm than good to the margins here.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Cé hé sin
05/11/2020 at 22:54

In the US the highland starts 33k usd, 4 door, ho hum suv, and the landcruiser 85k petrol v8, with about every option and then some thrown in. THe slot for the base landcruiser is taken up with the 4runner. th e highlander is for the soccer mom wanting a larger SUV, but with the nicer interior. If the roads are anything like the UK , I can’t see the appeal.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
05/11/2020 at 22:57

I think the cheap version would compete directly with the 4runner.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
05/11/2020 at 23:09

The 4runner is already a major status symbol and a major cash cow for Toyota, so why induce self competition? At least half the “ rich” people I know have one and they are almost always super optioned up like you wouldn’t believe.

dogisbadob > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
05/11/2020 at 23:25

It’s not the emissions standards; it’s the “safety” standards that are the biggest hurdle

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
05/11/2020 at 23:42

yeah for the last 6 years they sell 100 k units a year for a vehicle designed 13+ years ago.

FSI > dogisbadob
05/12/2020 at 00:30

I have zero problems with the Camry

FSI > MultiplaOrgasms
05/12/2020 at 00:32

Probably better than offering nothing. Our (geographic) European neighbors in the far East will love it

duurtlang > farscythe - makin da cawfee!
05/12/2020 at 03:05

Those pickup trucks will be registered as a work vehicle, so the high 5 figure gas guzzler tax can be avoided. You cannot register a minivan/Crossover/SUV like a Ford Explorer as a work vehicle, so the taxes on that will be enormous. A BMW X5 will probably be cheaper after tax, so who will buy the non-fancy soccer mom boat?

Additionally, those trucks tend to be converted to LPG (€0.50 per liter). I doubt the engines cars like the Explorer can handle that, so they would have to run on gasoline (€1.40 a liter). With the pre-war fuel economy those boats have, they make zero sense.

They will sell 2.

duurtlang > ranwhenparked
05/12/2020 at 03:30

In Europe I can import any new US market vehicle. I will have to make some changes, for example to fix the headlights and to add a rear fog light, but it’s doable and not prohibitively expensive. The US market car still won’t adhere to European emissions and crash safety standards, but US standards are seen as ‘good enough’ for a private import.

I can do the same for used US market vehicles of any age, but they obviously will need to pass the same yearly/bi-yearly safety and emissions inspections as other cars .

That you can’t do the same in the US is simply a form of anti-capitalist protectionism.

duurtlang > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles
05/12/2020 at 03:36

Well, a Mercedes Sprinter tends to fit as well. But it’s not the type of car you want to drive.

A non-fancy car with very high running costs (have you seen our fuel prices?) make little sense here.

duurtlang > Jb boin
05/12/2020 at 03:39

Surely those behemoths emit way more than 95 grams/km. Especially in a realistic test.

Not that it matters, as they will sell 6. They will not have any significant effect on the total emissions of the fleet.

Jb boin > duurtlang
05/12/2020 at 03:56

PHEV are getting very good values on the WLTP testings, for example the Ford Explorer PHEV with 457HP does 71g/km (while the smallest diesel Fiesta does start at 111 g/km) , which in real world will indeed do sensibly worse, especially if not recharged.

While i doubt they will sell much, they are about 20k€ less ex pensive than a Q7 hybrid that has a similar size, power and performance .

duurtlang > Jb boin
05/12/2020 at 05:08

Interesting! T his might increase the chances of it selling ore than a h andful significantly.

I do wonder how long we can keep these CO2 taxes thing up for plugin hybrids though. That Explorer can be economic if you charge it every few dozen km , but when you don’t charge it (often) and simply use it as a tax special company car, the emissions will be relatively horrible. Yet, it’s ‘subsidized’ for being clean. That’s a tax system that cannot last as it’s not rooted in reality .

I know that in NL the first batch of plugin hybrid vehicles (Mitsubishi Outlanders PHEV and Volvo V60 ) were almost all t ax-dodging lease specials used as company cars , and many never or hardly ever saw a power outlet. The company paid for gasoline anyway, so why would the driver care?